Author Topic: Advice/Help Thread  (Read 2800 times)

timtron

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Re: Advice/Help Thread
« Reply #120 on: September 25, 2019, 10:33:09 am »
Back-light bleed can often be reduced to nearly imperceptible amount by not cranking the display brightness and placing the display at the correct height.  Also it's unrealistic to expect to get a completely back-light bleed free display for under 1000$, though it does happen.

Display Brightness & Room Lighting: The Importance Of Light

Thanks, didin't know that brightness affected black-light bleeding.
Regarding brightness, the AOC 24V2Q had an option to increase the brightness to over the 250 nits it's listed as having, and both Playware's and PC Lab's reviews mentioned that also increased the contrast a bit, to 1400:1 and 1284:1 respectively. I was going to ask if a high contrast would be relevant to my needs but if high brightness increases BLB i guess i don't need higher brightness that much.


PC Lab PL (rise + fall response time for high total) and Playwares are using different testing methods, so only compare measurements by the same reviewer.  Also consider spending more on the Samsung S24E650PL since it is a bit faster and offers top tier SDR (HDTV/REC 709) image quality comparable to vastly more expensive displays (full SDR color space coverage and preset gamma and RGB level accuracy), and is a few ms (14ms vs 18ms)  faster than the AOC, though the AOC supports 75hz.

So if PC Lab is using a different testing method, what response time should i be looking for in their tests with casual gaming in mind? What rise + fall response time will avoid ghosting and is good for casual gaming? Is 18,4 ms good enough on a 75Hz monitor? What about 14ms on a 60Hz?
I saw that PC Lab calculate the required response time by using the frequency - 16,7 ms for the 60Hz Samsung S24E650PL and 13,3ms for the 75Hz AOC 24V2Q. From my understanding the response time should be under these values to avoid ghosting. And AOC's is over it (18,4 ms). Is it a bad idea to use the AOC 24V2Q for gaming or is it good enough?

The Samsung S24E650PL costs quite a bit here for a new one. But i found some deals on second hand ones for even less than the AOC monitor. Should i get a second hand Samsung S24E650PL?

I also noticed some other small differences between the monitors. The Samsung one has an adjustable stand which is really neat. The AOC one has freesync (48-75Hz), it has a little bit more screen space, takes a little less space on the desk and is thinner.
What's SDR?

Thanks for the response!

timtron

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Re: Advice/Help Thread
« Reply #121 on: September 25, 2019, 04:53:14 pm »
All manufacturer provided response times are fake and usually around 50% faster/lower than the true measured average pixel response time.  Compare the AOC measurements to a few other 60hz AHVA/IPS/PLS panels tested by the same reviewer and see that they're very similar.

Just took your advise and i can confirmed a lot of budget monitors on PC Lab pl are measured as having 17-18 ms. You are right, they're often similar if not the same. 18 ms is stated as being a bit too much for some games, in one translation they specified esports games, don't know about any other (casual) games. 17 ms is the middle option from what i've gathered, and under 16,7 ms on 60 Hz is the most optimal.

I wanted to ask a few more questions:
Can't i fix the high response time on the AOC 24V2Q with the overdrive options? PC Lab doesn't mention overdrive, or if they did i somehow skipped it. Playware suggests using Low/Medium overdrive because higher options can cause overshoot.
Are videos/movies/shows affected by ghosting, inverse ghosting, overshoot and other similar issues?

NCX

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Re: Advice/Help Thread
« Reply #122 on: September 28, 2019, 02:10:13 am »
I was going to ask if a high contrast would be relevant to my needs but if high brightness increases BLB i guess i don't need higher brightness that much.

The higher the contrast the better, assuming the panel has uniform brightness and color distribution rather than just a high contrast center which is common.  AHVA/IPS/PLS with >1200:1 are very rare, and the same two panels may (less likely now, but used to be expected from pre 2012 panels) have up to a 40% contrast ratio variance.  Reduced glow and uniformity are superior to a high contrast panel with more glow and back-light bleed.

What rise + fall response time will avoid ghosting and is good for casual gaming?

Oscilloscope measurements and photos can prove all 60hz LCD panels, many CRT's and plasma's suffer from ghosting (color streaking for fast pixel response times and smearing for long pixel reaction times) or phosphor trailing (CRT and plasma) which must not be confused with sample and hold motion blur which both LCD and OLED suffer from, and is reduced by increasing the refresh rate (60 to 75 to 120hz, ect). 

Almost all AHVA/IPS/PLS panels are fast enough for the majority (which you may not be part of)...those who are not using a high refresh rate CRT or overshoot ghosting and PWM blur free TN.

Is 18,4 ms good enough on a 75Hz monitor? What about 14ms on a 60Hz?

I can't answer this for you, but can guess YES if you're not using a PWM blur free TN without overshoot.

My monitor (Qnix QX2710) versus the Acer X27 whose response times you can look up here.  I also use an HP 24 Envy which is very similar to the AOC and significantly faster than my Qnix.  I always notice the response time flaws, including flaws from the fastest TN panels, but I can't stand using them, which is a common opinion from AHVA/IPS/PLS panel owners.

Is it a bad idea to use the AOC 24V2Q for gaming or is it good enough?

PC Lab PL measured 7.5ms for the TN panel in the BenQ GL2580...which is a Far Cry off the claimed 1ms response time.  I think the AOC is more than good enough, but if you want a significantly faster monitor buy a TN.

Should i get a second hand Samsung S24E650PL?

How much is a new Samsung versus AOC?  If PC gaming with a Free-Sync compatible graphics card the AOC is probably the better choice since it supports Free-Sync and 75hz, though the Samsung can probably overclocked to 71-75hz, has a height adjust-able stand, better image quality and is faster.  I can not recommend second hand monitors without knowing where they come from and what condition they come in.

What's SDR?

Standard Dynamic Range (HDTV/REC 709 and sRGB color space which are extremely similar and the color spaces most content uses) versus High Dynamic Range/HDR which is a form of wide gamut color quite different to the Adobe RGB standard.

fix the high response time on the AOC 24V2Q with the overdrive options?

Don't know, and the AOC response times are normal for AHVA/IPS/PLS.  Compare Playwares AOC measurements to a few others to be sure.

Are videos/movies/shows affected by ghosting, inverse ghosting, overshoot and other similar issues?

Everything is affected....but will most people notice?  No, especially in the case of the AOC as long as the overdrive is not set to the highest overshoot ghosting inducing setting.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 02:18:10 am by NCX »
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timtron

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Re: Advice/Help Thread
« Reply #123 on: September 28, 2019, 05:28:51 am »
How much is a new Samsung versus AOC?  If PC gaming with a Free-Sync compatible graphics card the AOC is probably the better choice since it supports Free-Sync and 75hz, though the Samsung can probably overclocked to 71-75hz, has a height adjust-able stand, better image quality and is faster.  I can not recommend second hand monitors without knowing where they come from and what condition they come in.

The Samsung is about 198 USD while the AOC is 137 USD. The used Samsung one is 101 USD

Im also considering the AOC I2490VXQ and BenQ GW2480. Which one is the best, the BenQ GW2480, 24v2Q or the I2490VXQ?
http://bestmonitorsbyncx.createaforum.com/general-discussion/best-24-25%27-1080p-ipspls-monitors/?message=111
http://bestmonitorsbyncx.createaforum.com/general-discussion/best-24-25%27-1080p-ipspls-monitors/?message=113
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 06:21:01 am by timtron »

NCX

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Re: Advice/Help Thread
« Reply #124 on: September 28, 2019, 01:07:56 pm »
The Samsung is about 198 USD while the AOC is 137 USD. The used Samsung one is 101 USD

I'm also considering the AOC I2490VXQ and BenQ GW2480. Which one is the best, the BenQ GW2480, 24v2Q or the I2490VXQ?

If the 100$ Samsung is the renewed and Prime backed model from Amazon I'd try it out since they have a 30 day no hassle return policy, though they did drop the price of a new unit to 164$.

The 242Q is the best since it has slightly better preset color accuracy (gamma) than the I2490VXQ.  The BenQ is the slowest of the three and doesn't offer superior performance in any category. 
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 06:09:40 pm by NCX »

cmy44

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Re: Advice/Help Thread
« Reply #125 on: October 01, 2019, 11:27:56 pm »
I am looking to get a 27" 1440p 144hz monitor for both gaming and media creation. I game pretty much across the board and need to use programs like photoshop and rhino for work.

I have been looking at the Dell s2719dg but have been reading a lot of mixed reviews so I was hoping for some guidance. My budget is hopefully less than 450 USD.

Any help would be most appreciated.

NCX

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Re: Advice/Help Thread
« Reply #126 on: October 05, 2019, 02:52:59 pm »
I am looking to get a 27" 1440p 144hz monitor for both gaming and media creation. I game pretty much across the board and need to use programs like photoshop and rhino for work.

All TN panels (S2719DGF which can come with low preset gamma or washed out colors) are unsuitable for work which requires color accuracy since they suffer from vertically uneven colors and shades (gamma shift which results in washed out image quality), but there are multiple non-TN options in this price range.  If in the US the 330$ Acer XF270HU is the best option since the newer models in the price range are worse since they use Innolux IPS panels with more ghosting (slower pixel response times) versus the AHVA panel in the XF270HU.  More alternatives:

Best 144-165hz 1440p Monitors with Free-Sync

phaolo

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Re: Advice/Help Thread
« Reply #127 on: October 17, 2019, 03:56:45 pm »
Hello, I'm new to this forum.
I remember NCX's old thread, so I'm glad he decided to continue his monitor reviews even after the site debacle.
I chose my Acer XB241H thanks to him a few years ago. :)

Anyway, my ancient secondary monitor (1050p 60Hz) is breaking (flickers when turning on and it's getting worse) and I'm looking for a new one.
I use it mostly for OBS, or to watch videos while I do other things on the main display.
My GPU is a GTX 1070, btw.

Can you suggest me anything? My budget is around 150-250 $\.

I think the Asus VG248QE had a good review by you and it's currently 200$.
It's a 144Hz and can be adjusted + rotated vertically (I'm short on space).
It doesn't include G-Sync (VG248QG has it at 250), but I don't think it's necessary here.

However, it doesn't show up in the current "Best Reviewed Flicker Free 24-25" 1080p IPS/PLS Monitors".
I checked some of those models, but maybe only AOC I2490PXQU seemed ok for my needs?
I'm curious about IPS, but I'd hate to see glow\bleed on my display..

« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 04:22:51 pm by phaolo »

NCX

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Re: Advice/Help Thread
« Reply #128 on: October 19, 2019, 01:53:23 pm »
I think the Asus VG248QE had a good review by you and it's currently 200$.
It's a 144Hz and can be adjusted + rotated vertically (I'm short on space).
It doesn't include G-Sync (VG248QG has it at 250), but I don't think it's necessary here.

The VG248QE uses LED PWM Dimming so I can't recommend it, the VG248QG is untested, and both use TN panels.  The excellent AOC 24G2U (tested by PC Monitors) is the only tested 24" 144hz IPS panel while the rest use TN or VA panels.  Based on PC Monitors review, I think the 24G2U is one of the best monitors under 1000$.

If a second 144hz monitor is a must I can only recommend the AOC 24G2U and best 144hz VA panels since the Acer XB241H is equal or superior to the newest tested 24" TN panels.

AOC I2490PXQU seemed ok for my needs?

The Samsung S24E650PL is significantly better, and so is the AOC 24G2U.

I'm curious about IPS, but I'd hate to see glow\bleed on my display.


All displays can suffer from back-light bleed and glow, and AHVA/IPS/PLS glow is a panel flaw with which can nearly be completely reduced by changing their display height and not viewing them same way as a TN panel:

IPS vs TN: Right & Wrong Ways To Use Or View; How To Vastly Reduce AHVA/IPS/PLS Glow & Increase The Perceived Black Depth

Back-light bleed can often be reduced to nearly imperceptible amount by not cranking the display brightness and placing the display at the correct height.  Also it's unrealistic to expect to get a completely back-light bleed free display for under 1000$, though it does happen.

Display Brightness & Room Lighting: The Importance Of Light


« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 01:54:59 pm by NCX »

phaolo

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Re: Advice/Help Thread
« Reply #129 on: October 20, 2019, 12:26:36 pm »
"it's unrealistic to expect to get a completely back-light bleed free display for under 1000$"
 [..] "AHVA/IPS/PLS panels can not be viewed from above or while being looked down upon without suffering from obvious contrast loss or white glow or vibrancy loss."
Thanks for replying.

I use my monitors when sitting (normal), standing up (during exercise), laying down (from the bed).
TNs have the opposite annoyance of bad colors when looked from below, like in the third case.
Maybe an IPS could be useful for that.

For normal usage, I set my monitor's height so my eyes' level is at the above-middle part of them.
It seems the only position that doesn't cause neck pain after some time.
I imagine that IPS won't still have problems at such height.

The glow\bleed though.. I checked some videos and I quite dislike it.
Dark scenes aren't exactly uncommon in movies.
Also, I imagine it's going to get worse in time.

I'll have to think about it.

If a second 144hz monitor is a must I can only recommend [..]
Ah no, 144Hz isn't probably fundamental for a secondary monitor.
Do you have any additional recommendations at lower refresh rates?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 01:47:42 pm by phaolo »

mr.b

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Re: Advice/Help Thread
« Reply #130 on: October 23, 2019, 10:33:25 pm »
Hello NCX,

PC Monitors says that my Dell U2417H has a white point of 6645K when I use its "Color Temp." (blue light reduction) setting at 5000K. I am trying to determine what the best bias light would be for this setting.

Right now I am using a 1600 lumen Feit 3000K "Warm White" A19 blub. The monitor's brightness is set at 22%. I experience some eye strain. I want to get a brighter bulb (maybe 2500 lumen) but I can't find an A19 with a 3000K color temperature.

As an alternative I could get a 2500 lumen 5000k bulb, disable the blue light reduction setting and use something like Ocushield to block the blue light. Thoughts?

NCX

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Re: Advice/Help Thread
« Reply #131 on: October 26, 2019, 12:01:36 pm »
The glow\bleed though.. I checked some videos and I quite dislike it.
Dark scenes aren't exactly uncommon in movies.

If you follow my display brightness, height and lighting recommendations glow is not a problem

Also, I imagine it's going to get worse in time.

It does not, and back-light bleed can decrease over time once the monitor is setup and no longer has pressure put on it by the box which can warp the panel slightly and cause or increase bleed.

Do you have any additional recommendations at lower refresh rates?

I recommended the Samsung S24E650P which is one of the best (under 500$) and cheapest monitors around; the rest of my recommendations are in my buying guides and I don't recommended 60hz TN or VA panels. 


Right now I am using a 1600 lumen Feit 3000K "Warm White" A19 blub. The monitor's brightness is set at 22%. I experience some eye strain. I want to get a brighter bulb (maybe 2500 lumen) but I can't find an A19 with a 3000K color temperature.

The color temperature of the bias light doesn't matter, you have the brightness to light ration correct, and I bet you will dislike reducing the display brightness more since it's already set to around 80cdm/2 based on the measurements by PCM and TFTC.

As an alternative I could get a 2500 lumen 5000k bulb

Brighter bias lighting will improve the perceived black depth, but also make it harder to see details in dark scenes, and make the display appear dimmer.  Consider putting silver tape (I use 3$ Silver 3M Scotch Expressions Washi Tape) on the inner black bezel to vastly increase the perceived black without making details in dark content harder to see. 

I've been using this tape for over year and have removed and re-applied it a few times to see if it leaves residue.  Here's my HP 24 Envy with and without silver tape:

Spoiler (hover to show)

Bright grey, silver and white bezels and tape are the best way to improve the perceived black depth, which is something I wish I knew years ago since I would have bought a few rolls of 3$ tape instead of spending money and time on lights and spray painting bezels. 

Ocushield to block the blue light.
 
Standard gamut (most low and mid range) LCD panels are lit by blue W-LED's which are painted yellow to appear white, and putting a filter (Gunnar glasses or Occushield) over the screen or in front of ones eyes is similar to using sunglasses, so you'll likely need to significantly increase the display brightness which is counter intuitive.  The OccuShield doesn't look like it makes displays look yellow like Gunnar glasses and Low Blue Light settings, but does make displays look a bit dimmer, and the OccuShield won't increase the perceived black depth since the U2417H's black bezel will still be black.  The only way to reduce Low Blue Light intake without reducing the brightness and/or image quality is to not use a W-LED back-lit display.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2019, 12:12:00 pm by NCX »

mr.b

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Re: Advice/Help Thread
« Reply #132 on: October 31, 2019, 10:50:40 pm »
Hello NCX,

What do you normally set the contrast to on your monitor?

NCX

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Re: Advice/Help Thread
« Reply #133 on: November 02, 2019, 12:52:52 pm »
Hello NCX,

What do you normally set the contrast to on your monitor?

Default unless the reviewer specifically mentions that changing it will improve the color accuracy.  I always check the Lagom White Saturation page for contrast issues, such as green, pink or red tinting of the grey and white squares, though the color dominance may also or independently be caused by the red, green or blue color controls.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 12:56:09 pm by NCX »

rafa

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Re: Advice/Help Thread
« Reply #134 on: November 04, 2019, 04:01:47 am »
Hi,

I would like you to help me choose a monitor for the PS4 Pro.

I am in doubt among these monitors. Which would you choose in relation to price quality?

Benq EW3270U 439
LG 32uk550 344
LG 32UL750 450
Philips 326M6VJRMB 550
LG 27UK650 380

Any other that you think relevant?

I am looking forward to your response
regards