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General Category => Post In Here: Ask NCX For Advice and General Discussion Thread => Topic started by: NCX on July 31, 2018, 11:51:59 pm

Title: General Discussion
Post by: NCX on July 31, 2018, 11:51:59 pm
I'm not sure, yet.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: MagicalChicken on August 04, 2018, 03:17:26 am
Might as well be the first here! Forgot to mention it previously, was wondering if your XG2402's contrast setting and green/blue RGB channel settings behave oddly too. For example, contrast at 70 and green at 100 causes a lot of the lower squares in the white saturation test to be completely invisible. The blue channel causes a very odd and strong blue tint to certain shades of off angle whites/light grays (Most notably the URL bar of Chrome being very blue tinted at the very edges/off angle, but the surrounding shades still yellowish) The red channel seems to be fine though.

No big issue, as it was fully fixed by lowering the green to 96, and having the blue 95 or lower, just a very odd quirk. Contrast at 68-69 with 100/100 has no issue either, but I keep it the other way, as I had to lower those RGB channels anyway.

Decided to also stick with black stabilizer 9 for now:

https://imgur.com/N7cywPt
https://imgur.com/HPbpLze

Though I wish it didn't hit red shades as much as it does (Well, at least blues apparently got much better according to the i1)
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: NCX on August 06, 2018, 11:59:44 pm
Quote from: MagicalChicken
Might as well be the first here! Forgot to mention it previously, was wondering if your XG2402's contrast setting and green/blue RGB channel settings behave oddly too. For example, contrast at 70 and green at 100 causes a lot of the lower squares in the white saturation test to be completely invisible. The blue channel causes a very odd and strong blue tint to certain shades of off angle whites/light grays (Most notably the URL bar of Chrome being very blue tinted at the very edges/off angle, but the surrounding shades still yellowish) The red channel seems to be fine though.

I encountered similar weird contrast issues as well.  The Custom Mode 1 had severe bleaching with 70 contrast and a default of 70 before I reset the monitor twice, then it defaulted back to 70 and was fine. 

Quote from: MagicalChicken
Decided to also stick with black stabilizer 9 for now:

https://imgur.com/N7cywPt
https://imgur.com/HPbpLze

Take advantage of the colorimeter and use dispcalgui or the X-Rite software to calibrate the monitor to 2.2 gamma since doing so will improve the monitor significantly versus the skewed gamma curve.  An sRGB curve will look washed out versus your current settings, and especially compared to the HP 24 Envy.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: MagicalChicken on August 07, 2018, 12:20:29 am
Quote
Take advantage of the colorimeter and use dispcalgui or the X-Rite software to calibrate the monitor to 2.2 gamma since doing so will improve the monitor significantly versus the skewed gamma curve.  An sRGB curve will look washed out versus your current settings, and especially compared to the HP 24 Envy.

Will do, however what put me off from doing that (At least with X-Rite's software) was the horrible results it gave me when trying that, despite using the best settings that I could and leaving it there for a while to do its thing. Hopefully dispcalgui will do better (Though I was using the 2.6 gamma setting at the time, which probably didn't help, looking at the readings for the 2.6-2.8 gamma settings)

I did install dispcalgui, so I'll give that a go.

Quote
I encountered similar weird contrast issues as well.  The Custom Mode 1 had severe bleaching with 70 contrast and a default of 70 before I reset the monitor twice, then it defaulted back to 70 and was fine.

Many resets, still hasn't changed anything for me. Not a huge issue as it was fixed when lowering green to 96-97, and blue down to 95-96 (Though the issue weirdly isn't on the default "native" color tempurature, and is only on full color control)



Edit, here are my results (Medium calibration speed, will do slow when I actually have time to do that, not bad though for medium)

https://imgur.com/lymTHf7 (Color/grayscale accuracy)
https://imgur.com/1Wr4mrS (Contrast/whitepoint/luminance)
https://imgur.com/jQgGzP8 (Color coverage)
https://imgur.com/e0GVv0w (Gamma curve)

Though it seemed to have wanted to calibrate it to an sRGB gamma curve (Had it set to "Gamma 2.2", unless that this is the exact same as the sRGB setting?) I might be blind and missing an obvious setting, let me know if I am. Not a big issue, still looks a decent amount better, especially in the lighter shades, and generally a bit less flat.

I assume making the calibration speed slower would help the grayscale banding a slight bit? I know that there will be some either way, just wondering if it will help. It's not horrible at least, and I can live with the amount currently, though I feel that there could be a bit less. It also seemed to have added some slight color casts into the grayscale.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: NCX on August 09, 2018, 01:06:07 am
Quote from: MagicalChicken
Let me know if I am.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1776/43221153474_ab10683d05_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/28RiH8h)
DispCalGui Settings (https://flic.kr/p/28RiH8h) by Deepinthesky Teslastorm (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97364704@N08/), on Flickr

Try these settings.  It takes around 90 minutes, but is the most consistent.  Since I started using dispcalgui in 2014 the accuracy reliability seems to get worse; often it takes 2-3 tries to achieve good results, even from monitors which are very accurate from menu adjustments.  I used to use basICColor 5, but it does not work with my Spectracal C6 (upgraded HDR capable i1 dp; calibration program I need for it is 400$ US) which I traded my 6 year old i1 display pro in for last fall to get it for half price.  Try the basICColor 14 day free trial.  It's faster and more reliable.  Use Color Sustainer (https://forums.guru3d.com/threads/application-color-sustainer-icc-profile-enforcer.386325/) to ensure games use ICC profiles.

HCFR Links are to the actual files since I haven't created screen shot compilations yet.

XG2402 dispcal (http://www.mediafire.com/file/brir660esk79u6f/Measurement_Report_3.6.1_%25E2%2580%2594_XG2402_SERIES_%2540_-5760%252C_163%252C_1920x1080_%25E2%2580%2594_2018-08-07_19-15.html/file) & HCFR calibration verification (http://www.mediafire.com/file/fc8qyqexgb0ef4a/Final_ICC_XG2402144hz_HCFRC_BS9_G24_B27_R96_G_92_B_86.chc/file)

HP 24 Envy HCFR Verification (http://www.mediafire.com/file/dlujv6a5n659ude/HP_24_Envy_75hz_HDMI.chc/file)

X-Star DP2710 Verification (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ue6ph6j0xbtj9gx/X-Star_96hz_2018.chc/file)

Also, as expected, the XG2402 does suffer from contrast and gamma loss in the bottom quarter of the panel identical to that of the Acer XF240H I tested.  The Acer is significantly more accurate out of the box, the overdrive is more balanced, and it has a better perceived black depth increasing grey bezel.  Sad to see that the XF240H (@60hz) is also more accurate out of the box than the XB321HK I tested.

XG2402 144hz Default HCFR (http://www.mediafire.com/file/1f3ojld3clqjbkc/Viewsonic_XG2402_144hz_Default_2.chc/file) and XG2402 Improve: User Color + Text View Mode (http://www.mediafire.com/file/u73tv2awsawp6b7/Viewsonic_XG2402_144hz_User_Color_Text.chc/file)

Acer XF240H 144hz Default HCFR (http://www.mediafire.com/file/mu947yplssl3jz4/Acer_XF240H_144hz_DP_Default.chc/file) and XF240H Improve: Gamma 2.4 + User Color + Black Level 4 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/3p83uidgneu67y9/Acer_XF240H_144hz_DP_B31_Gamma_2.4_User_Color_Black_Level_4.chc/file)

The 144hz gamma offered by the Acer is definitely worse, but it's more linear and can be easily improved.  Photos of the Acer and Viewsonic (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97364704@N08/albums/72157699575996464) at 60hz and 144hz, 144hz with menu calibration, and 144hz with the ICC profile (XG2402 only).

Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: MagicalChicken on August 09, 2018, 04:37:04 am
I would be careful with the buttons on this thing, my right arrow snapped off  :( (I'm pretty careful with them too)

Yeah, I'll have to try the long settings soon. Should I trust the estimated 4-5 hours for the calibration and 7-8 hours for the test charts?  :P

Edit: Forgot to say, I did partially try your settings (Just with medium speed and 562 patches instead), yet I still didn't get linear 2.2 gamma (Unless I'm mistaken and that those settings weren't for linear 2.2?)



On another note, I'm curious as to why you chose the text view mode? I tried it, it appears to be visually identical to CUSTOM1 on my unit, and testing it in HCFR seems to confirm it, just ever so slightly worse delta E's on the text mode. Haven't tested standard yet, but by eye it seems the same too.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: NCX on August 09, 2018, 04:01:51 pm
Quote from: MagicalChicken
Should I trust the estimated 4-5 hours for the calibration and 7-8 hours for the test charts?  :P

No, it takes around 1.5 hours.

Quote from: MagicalChicken
I still didn't get linear 2.2 gamma (Unless I'm mistaken and that those settings weren't for linear 2.2?)

The settings are for linear 2.2, but there's no guarantee that it can be achieved.

Quote from: MagicalChicken
I'm curious as to why you chose the text view mode?

The Text View Mode provided slightly better preset results accuracy my unit.  Look at the files in HCFR and you'll see.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: MagicalChicken on August 09, 2018, 04:52:21 pm
Quote
The settings are for linear 2.2, but there's no guarantee that it can be achieved.

That's strange then, because it really wanted to follow sRGB still for me.

Here's the curve:

https://imgur.com/OvruCxA
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: NCX on August 09, 2018, 08:25:54 pm
Quote from: MagicalChicken
That's strange then, because it really wanted to follow sRGB still for me.

If it were sRGB then 0-20% white would be under 2.12; 10% white is 2.00 and 20% is 2.118.  Change the Color Space Standard to sRGB in the HCFR Preferences+References menu, then put mouse on the white squares in the gamma chart to see what the exact values are. 
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: MagicalChicken on August 09, 2018, 09:04:05 pm
Ah, yeah, didn't look at it too closely. Though it seems to have still wanted to follow the general curve at least. I'll try it again later, maybe with slower settings too.

Edit: Here are my latest HCFR measurements on the "Standard" preset, which seems ever so slightly better than CUSTOM1 (Could possibly be down to measurement variations)

Standard:
https://imgur.com/VIJAEfi (Grayscale)
https://imgur.com/m4Pe6wG (RGB)

CUSTOM1:
https://imgur.com/z2bqV6a (Grayscale)
https://imgur.com/10hLDPc (RGB)
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: MagicalChicken on August 11, 2018, 03:10:26 pm
That's odd, even your suggested Dispcal settings still didn't give good results, in fact probably slightly worse than my previous ones. Grays get a yellow tint (Slightly less so than my previous ones at least), 1 and 2 of the black level test are the same shade, 5 and 10 have a green tint, and 3-4 have a blue tint. Gamma was worse too.

For me, it also took around three and a half hours total.

Could there possibly be something wrong with the particular i1 Pro 2 that I have?

Here are images of the resulting gamma and RGB gray balance:

https://imgur.com/542aIgu

https://imgur.com/aXWHF9b
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: NCX on August 12, 2018, 07:13:19 pm
Quote from: MagicalChicken
Could there possibly be something wrong with the particular i1 Pro 2 that I have?

Slight vertical placement change of the colorimeter can change a TN panels results significantly, and I warned you about dispcalgui calibration not always working well; it could be a number of things which negatively affected the calibration which is why recommended trying the basICColor 14 day trial and using it to calibrate instead, then verifying with HCFR.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: MagicalChicken on August 13, 2018, 03:07:32 am
Gave basICColor a try, seems pretty good. Surprised at how much faster it was, while giving similar/better results (Though still added some slight color casts in the grayscale, is that just unavoidable? Not as much as Dispcalgui at least)

Here are my calibrated measurements:

HCFR grayscale/gamma: https://imgur.com/qMsILak

HCFR RGB levels: https://imgur.com/RSOYNmz (Didn't show the primaries and secondaries, as they didn't seem to change from the un-calibrated results in HCFR)

basICColor validation: https://imgur.com/h92XmOC
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: NCX on August 22, 2018, 09:41:19 pm
added some slight color casts in the grayscale, is that just unavoidable?

I didn't notice that there was a question in your last replay until now, and I've been sinking my free time into the Destiny 2 Solstice Of Heroes armor grind.

It's normal for cheap monitors to have a color dominance and a bit of banding when viewing gradients and white, both before and after calibration, especially if major corrections are made in both the menu and by the ICC profile.  Major corrections usually are not handled well by both 6 and 8 bit +FRC panels of any type, especially panels without a 12-16 bit 3D LUT, assuming it works properly. 

My colorimeter (Spectracal C6) does not work with basICColor, but I did calibrate monitors with both discapcal and basICColor a few years ago and found dispcal to be superior when it worked properly (rare), but only if a very long calibration option was used.

Dark grey had a minor blue tinge since 10% white of my XG2420 was 122% with the ICC profile active while red was 92.6%.  The XF240H 90% grey was 109% after calibration and a bit better overall, especially in regards to grey and white purity since it was far more accurate out of the box.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1850/44209114741_5e1781a793_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2amBgAe)
XF240H vs XG2402 Calibrated ICC Profile HCFR Comparison (https://flic.kr/p/2amBgAe) by Deepinthesky Teslastorm (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97364704@N08/), on Flickr


Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: MagicalChicken on August 23, 2018, 03:23:11 am
Quote
I didn't notice that there was a question in your last replay until now, and I've been sinking my free time into the Destiny 2 Solstice Of Heroes armor grind.

Understandable, only just got back into it after a long break, seems like I missed a decent amount of stuff.

Quote
It's normal for cheap monitors to have a color dominance and a bit of banding when viewing gradients and white, both before and after calibration, especially if major corrections are made in both the menu and by the ICC profile.  Major corrections usually are not handled well by both 6 and 8 bit +FRC panels of any type, especially panels without a 12-16 bit 3D LUT, assuming it works properly.

Oddly enough, without any calibrations/ICC profiles, I have a perfect grayscale as far as I can see. No signs of banding or random color casts. Maybe I got lucky.



Unrelated, just saw this: https://www.anandtech.com/show/13260/dell-launches-gaming-24-and-gaming-27-displays (Just putting here on the off chance you haven't seen it yet)

I wonder how they'll mess these up, I'm guessing no gamma options again, as they seem to like doing that. Interesting nonetheless though, considering they're doing a 1080p 144hz. I wonder if they'll give the 1080p one the light matte coating of their S2417DG/S2716DG, though likely not.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: MagicalChicken on August 25, 2018, 09:43:41 pm
https://pcmonitors.info/dell/dell-s2419hgf-and-s2719dgf-glossy-144hz-and-155hz-tn-models/ (If you haven't already seen it)

Apparently the 1080p 144hz one will have the same low-haze coating too, interesting.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: NCX on September 12, 2018, 05:32:26 pm
I wonder how they'll mess these up, I'm guessing no gamma options again, as they seem to like doing that. Interesting nonetheless though, considering they're doing a 1080p 144hz. I wonder if they'll give the 1080p one the light matte coating of their S2417DG/S2716DG, though likely not.

Looks like the 24" version might be matte in this video (https://tinyurl.com/ycqskz8r).  I might order the 27" version which is available here, in Canada.  Update:  Should have a S2719DGF from Dell next week.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: Navi_When on September 22, 2018, 01:06:13 pm
Hey NCX,

Did you receive your S2719DGF?
Does it really have a low haze coating?
Is this TN monitor finally an alternative to the AHVA panels?

Acer will soon release some new AHVA monitors too:
VG270UP
XV272U

Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: NCX on September 23, 2018, 06:09:24 am
Did you receive your S2719DGF?

Not yet since there was shipping error which resulted in it getting sent to a different city instead of arriving a few days ago.

Update: Picked it up today, have not unboxed it yet, but will have photos of the coating and other important information up tonight.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: NCX on September 25, 2018, 01:09:29 am
It's definitely matte:

Dell S2719DGF matte vs Glossy 27 1440p IPS vs Low Haze HP 25es
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1935/43087784280_04e991950d_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/28Dwa7q)
Dell S2719DGF matte vs Glossy 27 1440p IPS vs Low Haze HP 25es (https://flic.kr/p/28Dwa7q) by Deepinthesky Teslastorm (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97364704@N08/), on Flickr

I have not hooked it up yet.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: Navi_When on September 25, 2018, 06:28:23 pm
Bummer, thank you for the information.


Since the Dell is not an option for me anymore, what do you think about the C27HG70?
It has worse responsivness than C24FG70/73, but it has higher dpi - and that's what I'm looking for (FPS/RTS Gaming and Programming).
Because of that I wanted to get the new Acer VG270UP, but even the Acer support does not know when it will be available in retail.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: NCX on September 26, 2018, 05:12:41 pm
Since the Dell is not an option for me anymore, what do you think about the C27HG70?
It has worse responsiveness than C24FG70/73

The C27HG70 is slower than their 1080p panels, but lacks overshoot ghosting (@144hz) and is otherwise a decent monitor.  If it can be bought from a retailer with a hassle free return and exchange policy try it.  I'm hesitant to outright recommend it because of the curved VA panels text blur and slower pixel response (vs AHVA/IPS/PSL), plus 144hz 1440p AHVA panels Acer XF270H (updated with a fake frame-less panel in 2017) and Asus MG279Q (from 2015) are competitively priced against it.

PS: The Dell S2719DGF's matte coating is completely clear or grainy free, but the preset gamma is under 1.9 and can't be raised which results it it being very washed out.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: MagicalChicken on October 18, 2018, 10:45:09 pm
Just going to hop in and add some more recent measurements from my XG2402 (And more details on the settings used unlike last time)

https://imgur.com/ytSFF84 (Gamma)

https://imgur.com/zpzx00B (RGB)

RGB levels seem to be slightly worse than my earlier ones (Though likely measurement variations again), but it thinks its fine so \_(ツ)_/ (The more I try to get it like the older ones, it's like nah, needs more of this and that)

CUSTOM1: Gamma 2.2, Black Stabilizer 10, Brightness 16

Color controls: R96, G96, B93

Standard, CUSTOM1/2/3, and Text seem to be mostly identical on my unit (Last time seemed to have been just measurement variations)

So yeah, mostly the same results, just some changed settings is all (Though colors are a bit more accurate on average) (Black Stabilization seems to affect some colors quite a bit, in some good ways, and in some bad ways. Finding a balance is tough)


I can also confirm the banding, though not as intense as what some of those photos show.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: MagicalChicken on November 04, 2018, 08:27:52 pm
Tom's Hardware did a review of the Freesync Dell, seems to have much better gamma than yours.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/dell-s2719dgf-155hz-gaming-monitor,5881.html

Whether you got unlucky, or they got lucky, who knows.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: NCX on November 08, 2018, 12:13:46 am
Tom's Hardware did a review of the Freesync Dell, seems to have much better gamma than yours.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/dell-s2719dgf-155hz-gaming-monitor,5881.html

Whether you got unlucky, or they got lucky, who knows.

It could be customer unit quality (mine) versus review unit (Tom's), Tom's only measuring the 60hz performance, or panel lottery.  The gamma drops at 155hz vs 144hz so I highly doubt their gamma measurements were done at 155hz.  Added the review to the Dell section of my Best Reviewed Flicker Free 144-165hz 1440p (http://bestmonitorsbyncx.createaforum.com/general-discussion/best-144hz-monitors/msg346/#msg346) buying guide.





Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: MagicalChicken on December 27, 2018, 07:26:39 pm
The 1080p 144hz IPS Asus VG279Q seems to be out over here, though sadly no reviews yet.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: MagicalChicken on January 26, 2019, 03:51:34 pm
You should add PCMonitor's XG240R review to its list of reviews: https://pcmonitors.info/reviews/viewsonic-xg240r/

Curious as to why you have it rated decently lower than the XG2402, as it seems mostly the same, however I could be missing something obvious :P
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: NCX on January 26, 2019, 05:01:53 pm
You should add PCMonitor's XG240R review to its list of reviews: https://pcmonitors.info/reviews/viewsonic-xg240r/

It's on the list along with >4 other monitors to add, and probably more when I actually do update the site on Monday.

Curious as to why you have it rated decently lower than the XG2402, as it seems mostly the same, however I could be missing something obvious :P

I put the XG240R last since I didn't know if it had the dark scene banding issue at the time, because it has low and skewed-down preset gamma (PRAD measurement (https://www.prad.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/viewsonic-xg240r-werk.png)), and worse overdrive performance compared to the VX2458 which has better preset gamma (https://www.prad.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/viewsonic-vx2458-mhd-native.png) than the rest of the Viewsonic monitors (assuming consistency), as well as very fast and balanced overdrive (https://www.prad.de/testberichte/test-viewsonic-vx2458-mhd-gaming-monitor-neuheit/5/) (Ultra-Fast).  The VX2458's main flaw is the perceived black depth ruining glossy black bezel.  The XG2402 and 0R have only slightly-less bad matte black bezels, and glossy plastic is better for putting perceived black depth increasing silver tape (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97364704@N08/29019642047/in/dateposted-public/) on, and are easier to clean, and are hard to stain.

January 28th Update:

I re-evaluated everything and re-ranked the 24-27" 144hz 1080p Free-Sync monitors (http://bestmonitorsbyncx.createaforum.com/general-discussion/best-reviewed-flicker-free-144hz-1080p-monitors/msg388/#msg388) with the dark scene banding heavily weighed (http://bestmonitorsbyncx.createaforum.com/general-discussion/best-reviewed-flicker-free-144hz-1080p-monitors/msg384/#msg384), which is why I excluded a few monitors previously featured.  I removed the 24GM79G after seeing Belgium Hardware's measurements (https://content.hwigroup.net/images/products_xl/394626/7/lg-24gm79g-b.jpg), and because I don't know if it has the same dark scene banding issues as the Dell S2417DG, S2716DG and XG2402.
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: playboy2010 on February 10, 2019, 08:37:49 pm
buonasera NCX scrivo dalla italia volevo un consiglio  su quale di questi monitor acquistare   Viewsonic VX2458 -Iiyama Prolite XUB2492HSU-B1  -Philips 246E7QDSW - AOC 24V2Q - Philips 245C7QJSB
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: NCX on February 14, 2019, 06:31:43 pm
buonasera NCX scrivo dalla italia volevo un consiglio  su quale di questi monitor acquistare   Viewsonic VX2458 -Iiyama Prolite XUB2492HSU-B1  -Philips 246E7QDSW - AOC 24V2Q - Philips 245C7QJSB

The English language is used on this site since it is the only one I understand.  I used a translator to hopefully understand what you are asking, which is what to buy out of the four monitors listed, which is a question I can't easily answer since the Viewsonic uses a 144hz TN panel while the other three use 60-75hz IPS panels. 

You're going to have to decide if viewing angles and image quality is worth sacrificing to acquire 144hz from the iiyama which uses a TN panel.  I would buy the AOC since it natively supports 75hz, but make sure the gamma to mode 2.